(Removed to protect the guilty. Tsk tsk, on whomever informed you of this falsity.) Will the Eglain the Travel [...] 
Faction/Reputation, whichever moniker you choose the result is the same: a standing with a group of people with which you have or have no previous interactions. We have several of these in the game right now and all indications point to their inclusion in the future. We added this system a little later than usual and as a result it suffered from a little less love than it possibly could have received.
As many of you know, I have been working on revisions to the game for the better part of a year now. The latest effort, the Lone-lands (full pass including the Epic Story and Garth Agarwen brings the area to level 22-32 and I threw in a dash of level 55+ for good measure), showed me that there was something missing in the game and through the assistance of beta testers I was able to cobble together the early stages of another undertaking - growing the Reputation system.
I have been spending some cycles working out ways that we can make our Reputation/Faction system a little more robust and also finding ways to make the goal of kindred more appealing. To that end there are some minor additions coming to the Lone-lands’ new faction The Eglain, when the Siege of Mirkwood drop happens. Rather than holding this back, I figured I would get this out there now and get some feedback, figure out if this direction scratches an itch and explain how I arrived at this destination. Like all issues that come up for designers this one was laden with some red herrings and murky waters.
The Issue…
There is no incentive to grind through reputation. - paraphrased statement from LotRO players.
Okay, we get that, the perception clearly is that the reputation system is light. The reality is…the reputation system is light. It started out rather fluffy and kind and grew into a system that is now used heavily in new areas and as a result, the inconsistencies and shortcomings are more apparent. We are aware of that fact. We dislike that fact and it is now a personal crusade to alleviate that issue and address concerns by providing something more with the reputation system.
Now, to accomplish this goal I needed to establish a benchmark. Something that would serve as the new template upon which all future reputation will be built or revised. That began with The Eglain in the Lone-lands.
The average player moving through the Lone-lands and following the quests there will find that they achieve acquaintance level with the Eglain quickly - the same is also true of any player who previously completed all quests in the Lone-lands. This design was important as the Eglain rep, story-wise, is now a gate for Book 2. (Don’t freak out! Really, it is easy to get to Acquaintance.) At each stage thereafter, I wanted to properly incentivize folks to stick with the reputation and continue growing. At acquaintance, players can see that there are rewards just out of reach, rewards that are relevant to their level and will have an impact moving forward. I also wanted to provide players with a different way of handling the advancement other than specialized recipes only used by the rep faction and so I developed a quest for every production crafting skill. These quests are available at acquaintance level and though they are not the simplest way to get to Kindred, they should help alleviate the issues of that grind and have an avenue that does not involve hunting, instances, etc…
Average players completing the remainder of the quests tied to the Eglain will reach friend - or thereabouts, those who previously completed the Lone-lands will be very close to friend when they log in on the update day. This puts folks at the first reward tier. An initial piece of a jewelry set. This is a specialized set to one of three stances - tactical, defensive and offensive melee. They are somewhat costly - but likely worth the expenditure.
At Kindred, players can purchase a tailored pocket item. I say tailored because it is built specifically for your class and usable only by your class. All items are rare and usable at 28, 30 and 32 (subject to change). The set bonus is a pretty nice and focuses on morale and class functionality over more stats. Those are reserved for the items.
Placing this up on the test realm for the Beta received some interesting feedback; immediately a level 60 stated that they could only reach ally through questing and I responded with the following:
“At level 60, is there really a reason to grind for this faction? There is no way to rocket players into the ally tier without also increasing the faction for players going through this area fresh. At the moment, I like the progression. I just need to make the items in there go from friend to kindred.” - Orion <- That’s me.
Now, I admit, the timbre of that statement makes me sound like I was being dimwitted or narrow-minded; but, my intention was not to provide a level 60 with a reputation that they could use. My intent was to create the template for future reputation implementation. A few more posts transpired and player’s dug in and then I dug in getting so adamant and uncommunicative as to say:
“Lastly, an area meant for levels 22-32 is not going to have a reward schema implemented to support level 60-65 players.” - Orion
Wow, really? Did I say that? You bet I did, I had my underlying goal of building that template and was hyper-focused on that and that alone; then something cool happened. A follow-up post came in:
“I wasn’t expecting to see rep items available that would be of any use to level-capped players. I guess what I meant was something - a title, a cosmetic, something “fluff” like that - that would stay with the player past level 32. I know it’s not realistic to expect something like this for book 9, just a thought for down the road as to how the lower level faction grinds can provide something that stays with the character.” - Beta player who knows who they are but needs to remain nameless for the moment because of NDA.
Suddenly, there was an epiphany - not really a huge one mind you, but an epiphany nonetheless. From that, I cobbled together a new document highlighting all the changes that I wanted to make to the reputation system in an effort to make it fully realized and complimentary to the game. By the end of that day I had the new doc hammered out with a list of things that I could do in the short-term. When I came home that night I wrote up a bundle of ideas for the long-term.
This is a snapshot of the process. We started this a long time ago and there have been some clear posts on what people wanted to see the reputation system be - but, honestly, many posts are filled with requests that, in the interest of balance, are just not feasible. We overlook some of the gems sometimes, we sometimes sweep the complaints into a pile and say that we will look at them later. Sometimes later never happens. In this case, it did.
The Solution…
From this conversation, where we cut out telephone, we were able to discern a legitimate gripe that was easily handled, something that should go a long way in realizing the potential of the reputation system. Like all things in LotRO development, this will happen in tiers and begins in only one area with only one Rep Faction - The Eglain. Though it will only happen here for Book 9, the hope is to carry this through as the new template of the future:
- At Acquaintance players will earn a title indicative of their standing with the group and gain access to items to improve standing or relevant level rewards.
- At Friend players will earn a title indicative of their standing with the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a 10% discount on all stable-masters associated with the rep faction (Ost-guruth has one stable-master), this bonus will stack with the travel reward given out earlier this year to “elder” players.
- At Ally players will earn a title indicative of their standing with the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a 5% discount on all vendors associated with the group. This bonus should extend to repair costs as well.
- At Kindred players will earn the last title for the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a travel skill - sharing a cool down with all racial-based travel in the game that will take the player to the group’s chosen home. This travel skill will require the use of a travel ration. We are aware that this will likely cause crossover into player skills, but the time investiture into these reputations is significant and we feel that this is a legitimate reward to offer.
Again all these are implemented for The Eglain faction and The Eglain reputation faction only. As time allows and as I move forward with revisions, other reputations will see inclusion and the same enhancements. These were the low-hanging fruit bits.
Now for something that we rarely do - a glimpse of the future. The earliest that any of this will be seen is in 2010, likely later spring or early summer and could get pushed out further than that timetable. My primary reason for offering these up is for feedback and to inform you of where my head is at this time.
- Deeds for completing multiple reputations - with titles and possibly specialized rewards.
- Kindred cosmetic rewards to display individual factions as cloaks.
- Kindred mount rewards (yes, we have some of these already - this would be revisiting those that do not)
- Ally and Kindred recipes for production crafting skills that are unique and have broader appeal: These might include; cosmetic items, food recipes serving multiple people at once, bind on acquire gear, class specific gear (rep clothes for your banner-bearers, unique looks for your summoned pets, special instruments, etc…), housing items (functional and non-functional) - all recipes would be and produce level appropriate on all accounts where the item would have gameplay impact.
- Swift travel routes to areas of importance to the group or relevant relation.
There are other ideas percolating, but they require more explanation than I can give at the moment, so I must cut myself short here.
Ultimately, reputation is another crusade being undertaken and one that I believe will be improved significantly.
Closing this blog out, I want to invite people to ask questions here. If I can answer them, I will. After all, we are in this together.
O
(61 votes, average: 4.85 out of 5)You need to be a registered member to rate this post.
Loading ...
October 16th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
If i am reading this right does this mean we might finally see a rep mount for thorin’s hall? like a really spiffed out goat or possibly an auroch?
October 16th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
[...] he sees it to be working in the future – I have to say, the post is quite an interesting read: Faction/Reputation Posted On: October 16th, 2009 Posted By: Orion Posted in: Design [...]
October 16th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
[At Kindred players will earn the last title for the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a travel skill - sharing a cool down with all racial-based travel in the game that will take the player to the group’s chosen home. This travel skill will require the use of a travel ration. We are aware that this will likely cause crossover into player skills, but the time investiture into these reputations is significant and we feel that this is a legitimate reward to offer.]
That is VERY cool. I have two characters who have their Factions almost maxed out. That is a good reward for something that is non-trivial to get. This will make most people desire maxing out factions and that’s a good thing all around. (Personally I always enjoyed getting them completed). Great concept, I can’t wait to see this on every rep vendor. I like when the grind is worth the reward!
October 16th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Orion, this sounds great. I like the ideas put forth on how to make factions more meaningful to players.
For a long time it felt like the faction system was confused. Some factions have rep dungeons to grind rep items, others don’t. Some have horses, others don’t. Some have vendors that give discounts on repairs, others don’t. And over-all most are good only for fluff since the time it takes to get kindred usually means you have out-leveled whatever gear they sell at faction vendors.
Right now,I think the best implemented faction so far is in Forchel. You have a horse, swift-travel options, unique gear that is very helpful in the cold and looks great. The ones I think are weakest are Rivendell and the Mathom House, neither of which offer much incentive even though both should be important factions in the world. Also side-groups like the Eldgang have faction, but there seems to be almost nothing to them.
I am looking forward to this improvment and hope we see a better balance of benefits for all factions, so people have the choice to go earn whichever one they like best without feeling like they are giving up a major perk like a rep-horse by working for Bree or Esteldin instead of Annuminas or the Council of the North.
October 16th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
These are some excellent improvements to the game! Giving incentive to high level players to go back and flesh out reputation in areas offers further content without any real additional work for quests and areas. And since these are all bonuses, they won’t hurt the players who choose to not complete rep.
Can’t wait for this stuff to come to fruition.
October 16th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Multiple completion rewards, you say?
That sounds rather promising, and I can see how some factions might line up quite well. If someone is Kindred with the Rangers of the North (Esteldin) and with the Wardens of Annuminas (Evendim), I’d imagine that’d improve their standing with rangers in general. If they were to then hit Kindred with the Council of the North, another Ranger-based faction… well, you can imagine they’d be greatly respected by the Dunedain. By the same token, if someone were Kindred with both the Elves and Dwarves, there’s a bit of a unification or outright diplomacy aspect there.
One point I’d like to raise, since we’re discussing Rep and I believe you’ve mentioned upcoming revamps in the North Downs. The very name of Book III is “The Council of the North”, and much of the book focuses on rallying the free peoples in the North Downs together to drive back the invasion coming down out of Angmar. I assume that the group the player helps to bring together is the same that eventually heads up into Angmar… one would assume that if you had such a hand in their founding, they’d already at least know you once you join them in the far north.
Perhaps we could get a little more involvement between those two aspects of the story, improving the transition between the plight of the Downs and the eventual push into Angmar? The completion of Book III could, for instance, grant acquaintance with the Council, and they could in turn pass on the quest to visit their forces that have pushed ahead?
October 16th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Could we perhaps ever see the potential of having a Violin from kindred Mathom house rep?
Will we get the ability to unlock more skills for our classes via rep from other places than the Garrison gaurd?
Could a rep faction be established with the Neighboorhood system that allows players to unlock services and special features for their homes? Like the ability to host a “party” instance for their friends.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
I think this misses the point for players like myself entirely. A lot of us come to lotro because the vast majority of character advancement is quest based. If I wanted a grindy play, I could choose among several older games or any of the Asian grinders.
I realize this is an activity that is optional and outside normal character advancement, but the grind aspects put it outside of my area of interest almost regardless of what the rewards are. Some portion of your player base who are like me will never utilize your valuable development hours because of this. I think you should consider there may be other issues besides rewards that these systems are currently under used.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I am so very glad to hear the Reputation System is getting some attention. It’s definitely been lacking in LOTRO (just don’t go overboard like WoW’s system is, where it’s often mandatory). I’m even happier to hear that Orion is leading the charge. I’m really looking forward to taking my little guardian through the revamped Lone Lands and the Eglain faction. (It’s about the only thing I’m honestly excited about with the Mirkwood expansion and is one of the leading reasons I decided to get it.)
As you’re going through the various factions in the coming year, please don’t forget the Inn League. Many of us that went through the extremely time consuming and painful process of gaining Kindred were rather disappointed that nothing awaited us - not even a title. Something nice of the fluff variety would be much appreciated. *hic*
October 16th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Orion, I remember from a Book 13 dev diary that the Lossoth were used as a special trial for the rep system. The primary thing I noticed with the Lossoth is that they require an extra level of standing — Outsider — that you must level through. I always wondered why the Galadhrim never had this rep level — they certainly don’t trust anyone the first time around!
Then again, having only 4 repeatable quests (the ones at Talan Haldir and the elven camp — forget its name) which have a 2-hour cooldown gets boring after a while.
Nontheless, I would be interested to see if any other factions will use this Outsider level — Thranduil’s elves, perhaps?
October 16th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I have one major question.
With the possible addition of so many travel skills, is there going to be a system similar to the new horse selection system in SoM?
The main reason I ask is we could end up possibly having 10+ travel skills, including class based ones, and it would be nice to have just one skill showing.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Orion just a quick thank you for being a dev who really has the players interests at heart. It is very easy to see that you are a great developer who enjoys creating new systems for the enjoyment of the players.
October 16th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Scratch an itch??? You just dumped me into a TUB of Calomine Lotion!!!
And seeing that other Factions could possibly be enhanced, as well…that gives inpetus to the grind for rep.
It’s going to be a hoot…and maybe annoying, too….to see Ost Guruth and environs turn into a lag-zone!
Thank you for this blog, this is really good stuff!
October 16th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Between adding mount rewards to all the different factions and the new mount system, it will really provide an opportunity for us horse lovers to build up a stable of various mounts (without having to carry them all in our backpacks!)
I think the reward system laid out is a welcome change and a good mix of fluff and practical rewards. It will be nice, in the future, to have a certain amount of predictability with the rewards from gaining rep. It’s fun to have the unique rewards that each faction provides (frying pans and yard towers), but it’s also nice to have some foundation rewards that make gaining rep worthwhile for everyone.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
It sounds like I’ll start polishing my rep in Eriador soon. Even if I don’t need the kindred skills because I’m a hunter. But please be aware that the travel skills are one of the last hunter specialties. Give us some replacement when you make it available to everyone.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
A wonderful post. I have to agree with the replay that not all players appreciate the rep system as it has represented a considerable time sink in the past and probably will in the future. Just last night I was looking to see if there were an factions that I wanted to improve rep with; and sadly no there were not.
I like the overall idea of the revamp, with some kindred reward that would be useful to any high level player. Rating on rewards:
mount … thumb up
claok … thumb down
crafting supplies (recipes) … thumbs up
vendor/stable dicounts .. two thumbs up
fac recall point .. thumbs up
house items … meh
October 16th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I’m all for adding reputation content that is not tied to a character’s level. Making gear available if fine, but in my opinion it doesn’t hold up very well. First of all, by the time a character earns X piece of gear the character is often high enough level that the items isn’t really that good anymore. That’s what happens most often for my characters and I’ve read of others experiencing the same thing. And second, such gear doesn’t age well. As an example, when my hunter received his Armor of Fem about eighteen months ago it was a huge upgrade for him. A friend and I just recently did those quests again and I was surprised that the set, even with its bonuses, was only a very minor upgrade for both of us. Basically, crafting has come a long ways in the past year and a half and the static quest rewards aren’t as good by comparison. I’m not saying such gear isn’t useful, but I find offering rewards that are useful for the life of the characters much more exciting.
Titles are always fun. Though I would hope they would be something imaginative. Bane of the Orcs, while not exactly a bad title, just doesn’t inspire one to grind out hundreds of orcs just for the title. But Well-Traveled inspired me to jump to my ‘death’ time after time after time. I could easily see myself grinding out rep to get a really fun title.
Cosmetic items, there’s an entire virtual world of possibilities that opens up with cosmetic items. But please, don’t just add a ton of cloaks. There is no shortage of cloaks in the game as it is. Give us tunics. Give up leggings. Give us hats that don’t look stupid. Give us interesting looking gloves and boots. Give us masks. Oh yes, give us masks!
More housing decorations would be welcome as well. Granted, house decorating is extremely limited, but more options are still a very good thing. And what’s nice about decorations and cosmetic items on rep vendors is that we can delete them when we want to redecorate and buy them again later. At this point it’s only quest rewards, festival rewards and special rewards that clog up my storage.
Yes! More Ports! Granted, my hunter will be hard pressed to find yet another quick slot for a port icon. But the rest of my characters are in desperate need of more ports. That would be an amazing incentive for grinding rep. And I for one do not have a problem with such ports cutting into hunter skills. For one thing, if a hunter is porting a group the only way they could use these ports to bypass his skill would be if everyone in the group had gained enough reputation to have the same port. I don’t think that will often be the case. Besides, hunters themselves will be able to take advantage of many of these ports, as I expect some will be in areas we don’t currently have ports to.
I’ve just started playing a captain. And I love the idea of more options to customize the look of my herald. A friend and I were talking about exactly that just a few days ago.
And though I doubt it would ever happen, I can tell you that if you added non-combat pets for every character to use, not just lore-masters, there’s a very good chance I’d skip both sleep and meals until I’d gotten enough reputation to get one. Of all the fun things I left behind when I moved here from WoW, my menagerie of non-combat pets are what I miss the most. A year into playing here I’d still find myself occasionally looking around wondering where my pet wondered off to.
There are all kinds of possibilities for reputation rewards. I’m glad you’re working on improving them. And if the changes you’ve already made to the game are any indication, I’m expecting very good things to come from this.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I’d focus on making the faction rewards appropriate for the quests in the area: e.g. just going through a given zone and completing the quest lines should open up a level of reward which is useful. The Forochel recipes, for example, require such high faction to obtain that it’s pretty rare for them to be useful to the crafter.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
[...] second was not an official Dev Diary, but a post from Orion on his My LOTRO page. This one discusses the current state of Faction/Reputation “grinds” [...]
October 16th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
The reputation system does need better reasons to exist, but there is one troubling part in this revamp. We ask and were promised, when the reputation system was first being discussed, that reputation would never gate content. This is a huge concern. I realize you say it is easy to get the rep you need to get to chapter 2, but once that promise has been breached then it may be used at higher rep levels to gate other things. Do all the rest, just don’t step over the gated content promise.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Another thought that occurred to me. Will this mean that lesser-developed factions, such as the Inn League and Eldgang, will become full-fledged and involved groups? Granted, their grinds are some of the hardest (or at least most tedious) in the game… but one would think that would render even more impressive rewards.
Perhaps an ashen steed from the Eldgang? Or at least a self-port to the Rift, something I know several would welcome.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Well, warden self-ports will now be cost more rations than reputation self-ports and we don’t get to group port like hunters. Sure, we can port faster since there’s no cooldown like the rep ports, but seriously come on, it really makes the class less unique. Some love please?
October 16th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
“…This travel skill will require the use of a travel ration. We are aware that this will likely cause crossover into player skills,…”. Very nice but if widely implemented in the future, perhaps this is a good time to consider implementing drop-down boxes for travel skills to free up quickslot space?
October 16th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
It will be nice for quests done in an area to count for rep with that area, i.e. quests done around Thorin’s hall counting for Thorin’s hall rep. I always found it odd that I had to start doing quests in the Northdowns for Thorin’s hall rep./boggle. However, soon™ this will be a thing of the past.
Thank you, Orion, for these posts, educational and entertaining as always.
October 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Orion you just turned a dreary day bright!!!! I had been reading the other dev posts and some of the new stuff and hadn’t been all that excited by a lot of the feedback. However, your ideas were like a breath of fresh air!! Keep them coming and inspire your fellow devs to have more epiphanies too!
October 16th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Being a rep freak that loves to be kindred where ever he goes this is great news!
October 16th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
This is a great post Orion. I need to re-read it a few more times, but I wanted to say that I like the thought, planning, and direction this is heading.
October 16th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Wowie, zowie! The travel reward for kindred is totally fantastic. This is one of the best “small touches” improvements for LOTRO in quite a while, and really fits in with your goals of improving/smoothing the player experience.
October 16th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
@Pyperings - Didn’t you read the bit about new crafting based quests to reduce rep item grind?
These look like great changes. At level 60, I tend to grind for only useful services such as:
Swift travel
Cosmetic Gear
Mentoring skills
October 16th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Orion, this sounds like some really great thinking. You’re improving on a feature already in the game in a way that rewards players beyond the immediate level range, gives them something they want without hurting “balance,” allows them to customize, and feels like a real accomplishment.
How about carrying the customization aspect a little further?
*Cosmetic Gear/Armor Sets (I realize this might involve art/model changes)
*Faction-based “Secret” Emotes
*Same-But-Different Combat Skills (an ancient dwarf-based tactical for Thorin’s Hall, for example)
And how about adding strategic depth to the choice of faction?
*Some factions mutually exclusive (i.e. elves/dwarves) (Sorry, completists!)
*Others mutually supporting (you mentioned deeds for gaining multiple factions, but what if Celondim faction points help you out with Lothlorien/Galadhrim?)
Also – Getting Beyond the Grind:
*Higher reputation unlocks reputation-only quests or even entire quest lines to move toward Kindred
Just some pie-in-the-sky, but it sounds like you’re on to some really good stuff here. More like this please!
October 16th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
You’ve finally done it, Orion. You’ve shown me I have some form of precognition:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=295156
Either that or you really DO pay attention to the Suggestions forums!!
October 16th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
This is good news, especially since I’ve invested time into Reputation in the hopes that someday Turbine would revisit it and make some improvments to the faction rewards. I like the idea of the system, and it’s great that you understand that something as simple as a Title, mount skin, or travel skill can serve as a permanent reward (as opposed to some piece of gear that will eventually be outlevelled).
Please don’t overlook Inn League and the Rift Giants, as those factions are incredibly ’skimpy’ even in comparison to the racial factions. There’s practically zero incentive to even bother with working on these ones.
Also, Thorin’s Hall reputation has always bothered me because you don’t start earning reputation there by doing the actual quests in the zone… yes it would open up rewards earlier, but it would also MAKE SENSE that helping the dwarves earns favor with them.
…and don’t forget to add a way for me to finish that %*&#^& Gift Mathom quest.
October 16th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I think that the swift travel rewards are an awesome idea. As I hunter, I in no way feel this steps on my class skills. One thing I would suggest would be to put a campsite usable by kindred hunters as a bind point.
Possible suggestion for Bree, Thorin’s, Mathom and Rivendell kindred rewards would be a discount on maintenance in the appropriate race housing area. Perhaps one of the other factions could give a bonus bank box?
October 16th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
I like the sound of this very much. I look forward to grinding Kindred for my Inn League Clydsdale mount
(crosses fingers)
.
October 16th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
@Kentaz: At some point in the future, there should be a mount that comes from the Thorin’s Halls rep. What it will be is yet to be determined, of course, as this is something that will likely not happen until next year - possibly beyond.
@Jadzi: When I get to the revamp in that corner of the world (eastern North Downs) that may very well happen. Again, no time frame.
@Elyske: First question about the violin - if time allows - possibly. I will make some requests. I have a couple of pet instruments too.
Second question, we shall see.
Third question, housing is another crusade that will eventually be fought. I want to see if I can manage all the plates I have spinning in the air right now before I tackle another system like housing. Maybe someone else will have time to step-up. Though, given our schedules and other development initiatives I think that it might end up being another plate I spin.
@PypeRings: I’ve said it before and I will say it again - no pleasing everyone. I know that the rep system is not for everyone. It is, however, for some and it is those some that I am working on this for - who knows, the changes that I am making might even make you a believer.
@myfreezr2: Pretty certain that this will happen.
@meister0: Avon and I are already talking about this.
@ararax2: We’re all that way, some of us are just a little more vocal than others.
@lunasea: See, that is why we should never say NEVER. We’ve broken that seal a long time ago. Now the goal is to make certain that the barrier to entry is low enough for everyone to ride the rides. When you get to the Lone-lands and see what has been done I would like some more feedback on the barrier to entry. If you need me to point to places where content has been gated - I can do so, but needless to say the gates are there we may have hidden them well…but we broke that seal a long time ago
@Jadzi2: Yes and yes. In fact, I have an especially evil idea for an Inn League mount.
@Morcanden: Bugged - we’ll certainly see about getting the costs reduced before the update. No guarantees beyond that for the immediate future. For now, just realize that you pay a handful of silver and have the skills - others works for weeks to earn the skill.
@fourleaf: See response where I am already talking with Avon about this very issue.
@Harperelle: If people do not like the system, they never will. It is understandable and completely fine.
@smashkilleat: If you give a mouse a cookie…
@bigo2mags: Sorry to disappoint - you were a little behind on this one.
- End Q&A 1
October 16th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I have always been a quest completionist. I love storylines and the quests are always a great enjoyment of mine.
I just want to make sure that with more additions to the Rep system we don’t go overboard in the future and start requiring too much based on rep.
The single largest annoyance that absolutely drove me from WoW was its requirement of Exalted (Maxxed) rep for some obscure factions just to get into an instance (albeit on hard mode) after their First Expansion. I hear this was eventually changed but it would still be wise to keep the rep system easy enough to progress through even if it means limiting the ammount of rewards.
I do like the prospect of “Equivalency” among the reps to try to give everyone something they might strive for without seemingly to favor a particular faction.
And as a Dwarf I am always looking forward to more Dwarf additions. LOL
October 17th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Well, I guess I missed or misinterpreted the sentence about the crafting quests for rep. So yes, this does help alleviate some of the grind aspect.
Thanks for your replies and hard work Orion. I am very much looking forward to these changes.
October 17th, 2009 at 2:11 am
This sounds AMAZING. I can’t wait to see its implementation and I sincerely hope that it will find its way into the build of all the reputations in game. That being said, not everything tickles my fancy, but my reaction is overwhelmingly good. First, getting the grind to reward ratio to be one that is this good very welcome. Further, most of the rewards sound amazing, especially the class items that provide the “tailored” benefits. Finally, I like the introduction of more mounts, as it is kind of sad to see that there are so few goat types in Moria and a majority of players seem to stick to the 4 types of basic Bree Fields mounts.
Sadly, however, I am afraid that the introduction of self-ports to places seems a bit too good. I partially worry for wardens, for what will they have to compensate their self-ports with other than a bypassing of kindred requirements for some regions? I have never played a warden to a level high enough to get the ports, but I imagine it is either trained outright or given as a quest reward much like the hunters’ guides. I am not afraid of what it will do to my hunter’s position as a taxi cab (I, in fact, welcome it), but worry that some immersion will be lost. If we can all grind to kindred and all of a sudden take ten seconds to go to any number of places, it will, in my opinion, make the scope of Middle Earth seem smaller. It feels like there will be a great loss of the feeling that Ered Luin is so far away from Rivendell and that Forochel is a distant and cold place (I am sure it will be cold in our minds still, but not distant). The super-abundance of self ports just feels like it will cheapen the experience of Middle Earth.
My other worry is that the reputation rewards given as class specific rewards can damage individual impressions and growths as players may be damaged. It is far to early to tell, but sometimes when developers force play styles on players by giving advantages to the said styles by equipment (i.e. preference of Skill A over Skill B by cutting Skill A’s cool down time and increasing damage), then players adapt to make their character more efficient using the mechanics of the game. This can really limit gameplay in pretty serious ways, especially for new players or players with radically different play styles. I really don’t expect such a thing to happen, especially with the way that LOtRO has been designed and implemented so far, but it is a worry that I have about this game, especially since I love playing it so much.
Otherwise, I think this is a fantastic addition to the game and really look forward to playing the Mirkwood expansion.
October 17th, 2009 at 5:41 am
Ugh! Not ANOTHER one!
Fact: Only people with severe OCD will ever get “Kindred” with any faction at the levels you pretend they are for.
Fact: Most rep items are vendor trash by the time people ‘get kindred’ and not worth bothering with.
I doubt that you will have more than a handful even bother trying to get these new items at levels 28, 30, and 32. Why bother? Especially in the lower levels.
What really needs done is lowering the amount of ‘rep’ so that it is attainable by normal people and not just those who don’t mind the mind numbing grind and yet another bunch of bag clogging junk pieces.
Rep is nothing more than ‘busy work’ put in place by micro-managers.
I hate ‘busy work’, it accomplishes little to nothing and wastes time better spent elsewhere and I doubt I will ever grind the Eglain on any of my characters of any level.
Spend your time more wisely Orion and dump the whole grinding rep system in the bin.
October 17th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Great post! I love the idea of additional swift-travel routes. Now if you could just give other classes besides hunters a little SPEED BUFF too, as a reward. Imagine it like this: Because you have reputation with the particular faction, you feel safe traveling across the land, and you are familiar with the obstacles… +5% to Run Speed as you travel through that land.
Secondly, I understand that Fluff can be a reward, but I think it can be handled better… Recently I have been leveling a tailor and the common knowledge is that you can buy the rugs in Falathlorn that make the process easier. In this same vein, introduce Fluff items that other crafters can buy to make the grind easier (use less materials.)
Thirdly, any chance you can FINALLY make use of those crazy crafting facilities that were plopped into Sarnur and Haudh Iacinth (sp?)?
Fourthly, introducing specialized instruments is a great idea… especially if the Minstrel can use it in combat too.
Great work!!! Thank you for working hard to make reputation a viable system!
October 17th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Orion, thank you for replying to not one, but all 3 of my questions! Keep up the good work ^_^
October 17th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
This is sounding really promising.
Just a couple more thoughts for you Orion:
1. The two superior workbenches in the Blue Stone Garrison are probably the best placed items in the whole game i think. I know my dwarf regularly uses them, and more often than not sees others coming there to do the same. I see great potential in expanding on this idea and having more crafting and superior crafting stations throughout Middle-earth - e.g. at Garth Forthnir, Tinnudir - that are restricted by Faction rank.
2. Following on somewhat from point 1, is the idea of removing the bind on acquire status of crafted reputation items, to mirror that of similar items obtains while out on adventure. Perhaps - as you’ve eluded to in your blog - the crafted reputation item’s recipes could be available only once a certain faction rank is attained, which by doing so could provide a stimulus for crafting-centric players to attain a said rank as it would in turn provide them with a crafted product that could not only be usable by themselves, but gifted/traded/auctioned to other players as well. The possibility of being able to make revenue from these craftable and tradeable items would indeed provide stimulus for many players to attain a high faction.
3. Cosmetic rewards i believe should be seen as a very real and worthwhile reward. From experience, the vast, vast majority of the player base uses the cosmetic system in some form or another. Providing lore and faction appropriate cosmetic hauberks and the like i believe would be extremely popular.
Keep up the good work!
October 17th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
YES YES YES, you finally get it. Most rep in SOA really SUX to grind unless you want a horse. Nothing else has been worth it. The addition of travel is a very welcome change. That ALONE is enough to get me to grind rep. I hate the long travel to everywhere, especially going between Moria and the SOA areas. My one and only downside to this is the shared cooldown with racial return to skills. If you are going to do this, I would really like to see the cooldown changed down to maybe 30 minutes. Keep up the forward thinking Orion, this is the kind of stuff that will make us a lot happier with the game.
October 17th, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Orion, first thanks for another insightful psot.
Second, I think the travel rewards are awesome. The idea of cosmetics an horses is a big icentive to grind regardless of level. With some going to have 9 characters slots now, it would be nice to have different mounts. Cosmetics are always welcome as they are such an important part of the system. These should become available at certain tiers also, such as boots at Friend, hauberk at Ally and cloak at Kindred.
October 17th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
This looks great! I see a couple things though, that I think are worth mentioning….
1. With the travel reward associated with Kindred, I think the scale of getting the upper reps should be increased. It’s tough now, but it should be tougher!
2. Can we have repeatable, soloable (and group, a la bounties) that will advance our reputation, and not have much other in the way of rewards? Reducing some of the grind, but keeping it such that people must intentionally work on their rep to get much beyond friend.
October 17th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
More cosmetic items - more unique recipes - more unique mounts. I would also like to see massive deeds like 1000, 2000, or 5000 orcs killed with epic titles related to those.
October 17th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
@Caerylwyn: As stated before, I know that not everyone will enjoy the rep. That is fine. There is plenty more to do.
@Ozthorn: It is highly unlikely, nay, nigh impossible for me to lobby for storage through the rep system.
@spiritintelligencia: Possibly, since there are some other things that I am also working on along the same line…
@BerenTelcontar: Let’s see - solo path through infinitely repeatable crafting quests (well, restricted by materials) - check. Rep advance through instance optional objectives for small fellowships and regular fellowships - check.
Now, there is another thing that I am also working on pushing through but it is way too early to talk about - but, it will go a great distance to helping players earn those kindred tiers.
October 17th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
That’s great and all, but faction grinding doesn’t keep people playing a game or attract new players. I wish basics like the PvMP system would get worked on more.
October 18th, 2009 at 4:49 am
1. I haven’t read any of the above posts so this might have already been said
2.
…
[quote]
At Kindred players will earn the last title for the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a travel skill - sharing a cool down with all racial-based travel in the game that will take the player to the group’s chosen home. This travel skill will require the use of a travel ration. We are aware that this will likely cause crossover into player skills, but the time investiture into these reputations is significant and we feel that this is a legitimate reward to offer.
[/quote]
As a champ I like having as many ports/fast travels I can possibly have. I got r4 in the moors just so that I can get a map with a 30min cooldown. I did ALL of the Eregion quests just to have more swift travel options!
What I would like to see from these ports is not that they share their cooldown with the racial skill but that they share their cooldown with eachother (Lone Lands with North Downs and others). Of course this would mean that ports to RD,MD,TH,and Bree would not be Kindred ports but I think post people would be willing to live with that
3. I am well aware that people are likely QQing about having another rep faction to grind for. I however, am pretty OCD and enjoy the challenge…most others will not.
4. Glad to see more updates
October 18th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Shouldn’t the Forgotten Inn be part of the same faction as Ost Guruth, or was it… Forgotten?
(I’m talking about the rent-a-horse discount.)
Speaking as a Warden, I think these kindred-based swift travel skills are freaking awesome. Wardens are uber awesome already and sharing our muster skills with everyone else will just make others better, it won’t take anything away from us.
I wish the kindred-ports were on separate cooldowns, though, I still won’t be able to port myself to Forochel for that bounty quest, then Michael Delving for that bounty quest.
Orion, so if I’m reading this right, currently Scholars can only craft a rep item for Rivendell but after this, Scholars will be able to craft a rep item for all factions (well, all factions that are updated, starting with the LoneLands then moving on to other factions sometime next year)?
Also, that’s awesome to hear, if I understood who you were replying to correctly, that the crafting table in the Bree rep dungeon might become something. I was so excited when I found this crafting spot that seemed to be related to the Watcher, only to find out that it wasn’t anything.
October 18th, 2009 at 9:07 am
@Banaticus: The Forsaken Inn is not part of The Eglain, but there are some Eglain at the Forsaken Inn. This does not mean that the Horse Routes there are tied to The Eglain - sorry.
The goal with crafting moving forward is to provide quest based advancement via making an item that you can already craft or have access to crafting for the faction. To allow all crafters the ability to make something for the faction. This change will begin with The Eglain and will start finding its way into other factions some time next year.
October 18th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Hmmm, sounds interesting. Rep has always seemed very, very silly to me. It seems that via questing and turning in items that you get while questing, you will ALWAYS outlevel any rep reward. Including and especially swift travel horse routes.
I’ve always thought and said before that all of the current level useful stuff should be much easier to obtain, again, especially travel routes. Keep the high tiers for cosmetic items and titles etc.
That way, while questing and on level, you actually get to use the rep stuff. Later on, when you’re above it, you can grind the items for your cosmetics and titles.
I’d also like to see adjustments made to required rep levels when the level cap is raised. For example - the current rep requirement to but a legendary in Moria. This rep will be much harder with everyone moved on to Mirkwood. Much of the rep was earned per kill in instances and through questing. New characters will have a hard time as prices will go up (supply will drop if no one is grinding in Moria) and groups for Moria instances will be scarce.
October 18th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
This has made me very happy. When I heard that this expansion was coming out, I thought, “What improvements would I really like to see to this game?”
1. Some interesting, worthwhile end-game solo/small group content that doesn’t bore me to death after playing it a few times - voila - skirmishes!
2. Something to make the Eriador reputation system useful and achievable - and here we are! I feel that the reputation system is a really good idea from a ’story’ point of view; you feel like you are interacting with the NPCs and their cultures.
I have a few questions:
- You said that it’s possible to get to “Friend” with the Eglain through normal questing. How do you get reputation past that? Is it purely through doing Garth Agarwen only, or are there reputation items dropped or repeatable quests a la Lothlorien or Forochel?
- Have you included gaining reputation through doing area deeds, like in Rhovanion and Eregion? I think it provides a good bonus incentive to finishing those deeds, which can be tedious with the only reward being a small increase in your virtues and a bit of XP.
October 19th, 2009 at 6:52 am
I agree with sMak but only for moria, Moria rep is not a nice feature, it is a gameplay must for every character. Moria needs faster “rep grind” for the guards at least.
October 19th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
This is wonderful, Orion, and shows how thoughtful your team is. The intelligence and dedication shown by the Devs here at Turbine is what makes LOTRO my favorite MMO.
October 19th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Let me guess, we will be killing boars in the Lone Lands for rep? LOL Sorry, inside joke. We always laugh at the long string of boar-killing quests around that level.
Thanks for looking at the rep system! Looking forward to the Eglain and future changes.
October 19th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
You stated the following: “3.At Ally players will earn a title indicative of their standing with the group, gain access to further rewards and receive a 5% discount on all vendors associated with the group. This bonus should extend to repair costs as well.”
I hope that the repair discount (which is larger then 5%) that currently exists for Thorins, MD, Bree, etc. are not changed to 5%. I use the 20% PLUS repair discount regularly on my toons.
One person has mentioned that Mathom (MD) faction is useless as far as many of the items goes. In some ways this is true, howerver it does bring a supreme Scholar bench closer to Scholar Crafters. Also it is near a stable. Which makes it much easier for many to reach.
Regards
October 19th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@Athniniel: Actually, there are fewer boar quests there now.
@wbhz: This should stack with any other relevant bonuses.
@Dampier: Repeatable quests purchased from the rep vendor for crafting. Optional Objectives and Challenges within Garth Agarwen.
Area deeds do not contribute to reputations - quests tied to the faction do.
October 19th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Thank you, Orion. I am glad to see rep getting some love!
I have one itsy bittsy little comment re Kindred reward. It would be obsolutely magnificent if, after you achieved Kindred, you were able to access your vault from any rep vendor that you had Kindred with.
Now, that would be a reward you can take with you at any level!
And,love the idea of a faction cloak! Faction Shield? Faction cosmetic stuff!
Thanks, Orion. TYVM!
October 20th, 2009 at 3:50 am
Hi Orion this looks good,
In my kinship we often describe the need for slippers for kin members who have finished their adventuring, so I’d like to propose a multiple faction kindred level reward - pink fluffy slippers.
To save your concept artists some time, and to hurry things along a bit, I did some sketches for for you: http://twitpic.com/m80mp.
I suggest the following stats and requirements:
Kindred standing with at least 6 factions including the Mathom Society.
-70% Run speed.
+5% out of combat moral and power recovery.
minimum level 60.
Description: Your adventuring days are over, or at least you need a short break. These slippers are perfect for story telling and snoozing by the fireside, but remember to take them off before you go out to relive the glory!
I’ve got a few more ideas that I’ll try and sketch out soon!
October 20th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
This is going to be very interesting. I suppose those of us with most of their factions already maxed out will log in one day with an explosion of new skills, titles and other cool stuff to check out.
The Kindred swift travel will be very nice. It’ll be like my Loremaster is a very slow hunter. Not much use to the actual hunters though.
Oh, and I think that the majority of people would LOVE to see a race and Thorin’s Hall specific Auroch mount. Only those who are dwarves and at Kindred with TH can use it. /nod (Either way, an Auroch mount would be amazing, but since that seems fairly far-fetched, it would be great to implement a new LM pet into the mix… even if it is only cosmetic, but since the Aurochs do actually fight… hint hint…)
Looking forward to the changes!
October 20th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
[...] just finished reading Orion’s blog post on upcoming faction/reputation changes and thought I’d offer my usual unsolicited (and perhaps unwanted) [...]
October 20th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
My comments ran a bit long, so I thought I’d put them in my blog instead of filling up a box with them:
http://my.lotro.com/niida/2009/10/20/factionreputation-feedback/
October 21st, 2009 at 5:47 pm
I’m relatively new to the game, but I’m excited about what you’re proposing. I’ve finally settled down on a main, my warden, and I LOVE the port skills. I’m actually dreading the running around my alts will take…. So rep-related travel gives me hope and incentive!
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:47 am
All sounds awesome to me.
October 23rd, 2009 at 4:05 pm
I love all those ideas in the journal. Some folks work very hard to get the rep and almost ANY way to make it worth while sure is appreciated. I would also like to see some of these ideas work their way over to the deeds. The titles, quest slots, and trait rewards are all fine, but when you complete a certain percentage, or maybe all of a certain type, it would be nice to see something in the way of an extra reward (nifty title, cosmo item, etc.)
I also wouldn’t mind seeing something very hard to obtain with an equally worthwhile reward. Something along the lines of, complete 250 deeds (don’t know how many there are, but say 95% of all available to your character) and gain a permanent +10 bag slots in one of your bags on that character. Just an example
I like seeing the progress made on the factions.
October 23rd, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I’d also recommend that you revisit what the actual rewards are for the rep. (sounds like you are, but just wanted to comment while you were looking for feedback). I’ve not had a character yet that has been able to purchase a rep item that wasn’t far, far below my level. I typically finish every single quest and deed in a land and move on and am still friend rep and 15 levels over the items available at kindred. I know you don’t want to provide for level 60’s in a level 30 area, but make sure its possible to get all the rep without out-leveling your character for it first.
October 24th, 2009 at 12:07 am
What about Crafting Guild rep?
Someone said they liked such and such superior workbench or forge… Don’t stick it in ethnic/region rep but give Craft Guilds allies, or at least Kin, access to superior workstations at any civilised location. Look at the real life version of Crafting Guilds : the advantage was that as a Journeyman you could find guildies wherever you went to help you out. What about something like that to liven up the Craft Guilds?
October 24th, 2009 at 8:50 am
@HairyStef: That is the one area where I am not going to be doing much with Reputation. Not because I hate crafters - quite the contrary and soon I can explain why - but, the crafting guild’s system is a little removed from traditional rep factions. We’ll need to do some specific love there. And yes, we have a plan.
It is starting to look like 2010 will swing the pendulum back toward the game’s roots.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:46 am
The only faction I’m kindred with is losoth because it gave me superior forge and workbench and vault in small area. Also it was first area where faction was working when I went through it.
One thing missing is cross faction faction. That is if I get high faction with one set of say elves then I should get some faction with other elves? dwarfs, Hobbies, Rangers,…
November 16th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Very exciting!
I hope you’re going to build in ways to *lose* rep too, as was done in Lothlorien. It’s a lovely way to add flavour and depth - and keep people on their toes… you cannot mindlessly kill everything you see there, the game mechanics give you the option of stepping outside the bounds of the tale’s “right-behaviour”, but puts an appropriate price on it. I really like that.